First, speaking as a gay, Episcopalian socialist -- I agree with every point you've made; and for the reasons you've listed!
Second, you should see how the same evangelical Christians who want to impose THEIR version of Christianity on everybody get TERRIBLY offended when, at some public ceremony where they want a prayerful invocation, I offer the "Salve Regina" (a prayer of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, in the Mother Tongue - LATIN)!
It goes like this:
Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiæ,
vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve.
Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevæ
Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes
in hac lacrimarum valle.
Eia, ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos
misericordes oculos ad nos converte;
Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui,
nobis post hoc exsilium ostende.
O clemens, O pia, O dulcis Virgo Maria.
℣ Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genitrix,
℟ Ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi.
Oremus.
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui gloriosæ Virginis Matris Mariæ corpus et animam, ut dignum Filii tui habitaculum effici mereretur, Spiritu Sancto cooperante præparasti: da, ut cuius commemoratione lætamur; eius pia intercessione, ab instantibus malis, et a morte perpetua liberemur. Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum.℟ Amen.
Sometimes, just for variety, I offer the Shema Y'Israel (in Hebrew) or the first Surah of the Qur'an. I say the first Surah in English because my Arabic is so terrible it is registered as a lethal weapon! 😄
Gosh: one would get the impression that evangelical Christians believe THEY have the only valid "faith"!
Evangelicals absolutely believe that they are the only valid faith. Some years ago, I participated in a conference at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, a fundamentalist stronghold. They told me that they got some blowback for inviting an atheist like me to speak but a great deal more blowback for inviting the Catholic Peter Kreeft.
On a personal note, I have two evangelical first cousins, whom I care deeply about, who are very concerned about the state of my soul. They evangelize me, sometimes subtly, and sometimes not. They have never, ever asked me what I believe or why I believe it. They don't care. They are so sure that they are right that the only right choice is to agree with them.
When my very evangelical cousin passed away, I attended his very evangelical funeral which featured an "altar call" at the end of the service. (At a funeral!) One of my cousins nudged me and told me I needed to go up front and "give my life to Jesus". I refused to do so.
There was another invitation given at the internment, and again I refused to go. My cousin asked me, "Something has made your heart hard. What are you going to do if you're involved in an automobile accident on your way back to Indy? Then it'll be too late!"
I looked at my cousin and said, "Episcopalians and Catholics ARE Christians; and *mind your own damn business!*"
I had an uncle of whom I was very fond. At his funeral, the tool who delivered his funeral address was a pastor at Champions Forest Baptist, a local fundamentalist megachurch. He said practically nothing about my uncle, a remarkable man who was a Seabee in WW II and at age 17 was guarding Japanese prisoners with an M-1 rifle. Instead, he gave a come-to-Jesus sermon. I was sitting up front with the family where he could see me. I retaliated by frowning and ostentatiously checking my watch every three minutes.
Not "liking" because I like what the Baptist minister said during your uncle's funeral (which was really cringe-y) but because I relate strongly to what you wrote.
Back in 2011, the husband of my best friend (who is atheist) passed. She asked if I would do his funeral. I was happy to do that for her. I worked my butt off creating a respectful, spiritual (but not overtly Christian) service and funeral sermon to honor my best friend's husband without being "preachy". "Preachy" would have been completely inappropriate.
Since this was south Georgia, the husband's family also asked a Southern Baptist minister to preach, who went full "come to Jesus" complete with an altar call. I had NO idea that was coming, and I mortified. After the funeral, I confronted the minister and said that half of the congregation were atheist, and couldn't he have considered THEIR feelings since it was THEIR husband and THEIR father and THEIR uncle and THEIR friend who had died?
He responded saying he had a "duty" to get them "saved". I responded, "Well, I'm an Episcopalian. Do I also need to be "saved"?" He retorted, "Well, I suppose a few Episcopalians might be "saved", but if they are, it's DESPITE the fact that they're Episcopalian!"
I looked at him and said, "You're a real SOB masquerading as a True Christian™!" -- turned around, and left. I was sorely tempted to deck the son-of-a-bitch.
Follow up: I talked to one of my evangelical cousins a couple of days ago and he said he wanted to have a serious talk with me about you-know-what. He said he wanted me to listen to him carefully. I told him no, that I would only listen to him if he agreed to listen to me. He agreed, but this poses a dilemma for me. As far as I know, he has no education beyond a couple of semesters in college. I have expressed my beliefs (nonbelief) in a master's thesis, a doctoral dissertation, and two books, one published by Ed and the Atlanta Freethought Press. So, I know this stuff at a level of sophistication far beyond anything he can imagine. No brag, just fact. So, I want to tell him frankly the basis of my nonbelief, but I don't want him to feel that I am browbeating him or trying to intimidate him with big words and big concepts. I don't imagine I will invoke Bayes' Theorem or the modal version of the ontological argument. I am sure that he has absolutely nothing to say that I have not heard dozens of times before, but as a consideration to him I am willing to listen. Whether he will listen to me remains to be seen.
Whatever happened to Roy Moore? Wasn't he shown to be a pedophile? Maybe he is on Epstein's list. Anyway, I must admit that I thoroughly enjoyed the scenes of lachrymose fundamentalists bewailing the removal of Roy's Rock--the 5000 pound boulder inscribed with the Ten Commandments that had been erected on state property.
First, speaking as a gay, Episcopalian socialist -- I agree with every point you've made; and for the reasons you've listed!
Second, you should see how the same evangelical Christians who want to impose THEIR version of Christianity on everybody get TERRIBLY offended when, at some public ceremony where they want a prayerful invocation, I offer the "Salve Regina" (a prayer of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, in the Mother Tongue - LATIN)!
It goes like this:
Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiæ,
vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve.
Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevæ
Ad te suspiramus, gementes et flentes
in hac lacrimarum valle.
Eia, ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos
misericordes oculos ad nos converte;
Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui,
nobis post hoc exsilium ostende.
O clemens, O pia, O dulcis Virgo Maria.
℣ Ora pro nobis, sancta Dei Genitrix,
℟ Ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi.
Oremus.
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, qui gloriosæ Virginis Matris Mariæ corpus et animam, ut dignum Filii tui habitaculum effici mereretur, Spiritu Sancto cooperante præparasti: da, ut cuius commemoratione lætamur; eius pia intercessione, ab instantibus malis, et a morte perpetua liberemur. Per eundem Christum Dominum nostrum.℟ Amen.
Sometimes, just for variety, I offer the Shema Y'Israel (in Hebrew) or the first Surah of the Qur'an. I say the first Surah in English because my Arabic is so terrible it is registered as a lethal weapon! 😄
Gosh: one would get the impression that evangelical Christians believe THEY have the only valid "faith"!
Latin always gladdens my heart.
Evangelicals absolutely believe that they are the only valid faith. Some years ago, I participated in a conference at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, a fundamentalist stronghold. They told me that they got some blowback for inviting an atheist like me to speak but a great deal more blowback for inviting the Catholic Peter Kreeft.
On a personal note, I have two evangelical first cousins, whom I care deeply about, who are very concerned about the state of my soul. They evangelize me, sometimes subtly, and sometimes not. They have never, ever asked me what I believe or why I believe it. They don't care. They are so sure that they are right that the only right choice is to agree with them.
Do I EVER get that, Keith! BIG-TIME.
When my very evangelical cousin passed away, I attended his very evangelical funeral which featured an "altar call" at the end of the service. (At a funeral!) One of my cousins nudged me and told me I needed to go up front and "give my life to Jesus". I refused to do so.
There was another invitation given at the internment, and again I refused to go. My cousin asked me, "Something has made your heart hard. What are you going to do if you're involved in an automobile accident on your way back to Indy? Then it'll be too late!"
I looked at my cousin and said, "Episcopalians and Catholics ARE Christians; and *mind your own damn business!*"
We really haven't spoken since then.
I had an uncle of whom I was very fond. At his funeral, the tool who delivered his funeral address was a pastor at Champions Forest Baptist, a local fundamentalist megachurch. He said practically nothing about my uncle, a remarkable man who was a Seabee in WW II and at age 17 was guarding Japanese prisoners with an M-1 rifle. Instead, he gave a come-to-Jesus sermon. I was sitting up front with the family where he could see me. I retaliated by frowning and ostentatiously checking my watch every three minutes.
Not "liking" because I like what the Baptist minister said during your uncle's funeral (which was really cringe-y) but because I relate strongly to what you wrote.
Back in 2011, the husband of my best friend (who is atheist) passed. She asked if I would do his funeral. I was happy to do that for her. I worked my butt off creating a respectful, spiritual (but not overtly Christian) service and funeral sermon to honor my best friend's husband without being "preachy". "Preachy" would have been completely inappropriate.
Since this was south Georgia, the husband's family also asked a Southern Baptist minister to preach, who went full "come to Jesus" complete with an altar call. I had NO idea that was coming, and I mortified. After the funeral, I confronted the minister and said that half of the congregation were atheist, and couldn't he have considered THEIR feelings since it was THEIR husband and THEIR father and THEIR uncle and THEIR friend who had died?
He responded saying he had a "duty" to get them "saved". I responded, "Well, I'm an Episcopalian. Do I also need to be "saved"?" He retorted, "Well, I suppose a few Episcopalians might be "saved", but if they are, it's DESPITE the fact that they're Episcopalian!"
I looked at him and said, "You're a real SOB masquerading as a True Christian™!" -- turned around, and left. I was sorely tempted to deck the son-of-a-bitch.
As a former Whiskeypalian, I heartily approve!
His "duty" was to get you to think like him, vote like him, and give money to causes he likes.
Follow up: I talked to one of my evangelical cousins a couple of days ago and he said he wanted to have a serious talk with me about you-know-what. He said he wanted me to listen to him carefully. I told him no, that I would only listen to him if he agreed to listen to me. He agreed, but this poses a dilemma for me. As far as I know, he has no education beyond a couple of semesters in college. I have expressed my beliefs (nonbelief) in a master's thesis, a doctoral dissertation, and two books, one published by Ed and the Atlanta Freethought Press. So, I know this stuff at a level of sophistication far beyond anything he can imagine. No brag, just fact. So, I want to tell him frankly the basis of my nonbelief, but I don't want him to feel that I am browbeating him or trying to intimidate him with big words and big concepts. I don't imagine I will invoke Bayes' Theorem or the modal version of the ontological argument. I am sure that he has absolutely nothing to say that I have not heard dozens of times before, but as a consideration to him I am willing to listen. Whether he will listen to me remains to be seen.
Whatever happened to Roy Moore? Wasn't he shown to be a pedophile? Maybe he is on Epstein's list. Anyway, I must admit that I thoroughly enjoyed the scenes of lachrymose fundamentalists bewailing the removal of Roy's Rock--the 5000 pound boulder inscribed with the Ten Commandments that had been erected on state property.